Interview with Oboronprom General Director Dmitry Lelikov for the “Arsenal” program on the Ekho Moskvy radio station

SERGEY BUNTMAN: Good evening. Let’s start our latest program. Your anchors this evening are Anatoly Ermolin, Alexander Kurennoy and Sergey Buntman. Our guest is Dmitry Lelikov – General Director of the OPK Oboronprom. Good evening.

D. LELIKOV: Good evening.

S. BUNTMAN: Let’s talk about helicopters, about the engines, let’s talk about the future. Perhaps, we’ll again raise the eternal issue – why everything changes so slowly. We always have the same question from our audience: in our view, military equipment should change in the same way the mobile phones do, every three days you receive a message – you have an update, download the update.

A. KURENNOY: And the guests try to convince us otherwise.

S. BUNTMAN: And give the real picture. Sasha traditionally asks the first question.

A. KURENNOY: Yes, let’s keep to tradition. Dmitry, the question is this. The Oboronprom corporation is a giant structure. You can divide its activities into two parts: helicopter building, this is the corporation Russian Helicopters JSC, and the United Engine Corporation. Can you outline the activities of the structure as a whole and each of these two components?

D. LELIKOV: Oboronprom was established in 2002. In 2004 the first presidential decree was issued to incorporate helicopter assets into Oboronprom. The first decree dealt with Mil assets. From that moment the serious work of consolidating the Russian helicopter-building industry began. Just two years later a second decree was issued, where Kamov assets were also incorporated into Oboronprom. So, the helicopter assets of the Russian Federation were consolidated in Oboronprom, with both Mil and Kamov.

In 2007, we established a management company Russian Helicopters JSC, in which we planned to invest these assets in order to create a vertically integrated industrial holding company Russian Helicopters, which we did. In 2010, the formation of the holding company was completed by including the helicopter assets on the Oboronprom balance sheet. In addition to receiving assets from the state, Oboronprom also acquired the missing shares it needed to gain control the company and more effectively manage the shares on the market, and increased the authorized capital under various federal programs.

So, the assets that we incorporated in Russian Helicopters were already to a significant level under the control of the majority shareholder of Oboronprom and then Russian Helicopters. And this is the key to effective management. Because a lot of management steps can only be taken when you have 51%, but a lot of actions – especially those needed during restructuring – you can do only if the company has 75 percent or more. This was the key objective of the first stage – to complete the consolidation of significant packets of shares. In 2010, the company Russian Helicopters was formed as a fully-fledged industrial holding company, and since that time it has been working and gaining momentum.

S. BUNTMAN: You said that you need to have three quarters of a company’s shares to make a lot of decisions. And what is the aim of all this? What was the grand purpose of this association, this consolidation?

A. KURENNOY: To form a structure that will, in effect, become a monopoly on the helicopter market in Russia?

D. LELIKOV: It was a monopoly from the very beginning, when all the assets were brought in. The purpose of increasing the stake was to carry out a complete restructuring of the industry. Because without restructuring the industry it is difficult to achieve high economic and production efficiency. Why? The industry already had some specifics due to the structuring of the aviation industry back in the Soviet Union. To date, vertically integrated structures, competitors of Russian Helicopters on the world market, are companies whose parent companies have their own design bureaus, test centers and assembly sites, which means that they are compact, well-managed companies.

Russian Helicopters and Oboronprom as a major shareholder face the same goal today, which is not only to form a company that is vertically and horizontally integrated, but also to make it an effective player on the world market. This is a major challenge facing top management at both Russian Helicopters and Oboronprom.

A. ERMOLIN: For the first time I have come across the name “division” for a business unit in your company. What does this mean?

D. LELIKOV: Divisions have now been created at United Engine Corporation. I will say briefly that in 2008, 4 years after the first presidential decree on the formation of the helicopter corporation, the president issued a decree transferring the engine-building assets to Oboronprom. In 2010 we formed the complete holding company Russian Helicopters JSC, and in 2012 we created the United Engine Corporation holding, that is, it took us 4 years to do this.

In the past year, we transferred all the assets to the share capital of United Engine Corporation, and today UEC is the same high-grade industrial holding company as Russian Helicopters. But, in contrast to Russian Helicopters, the UEC corporate structure is a little different. We opted for the creation of divisions, based on a product principle, due to the fact that organizationally the product range of engines is much broader than the product range of helicopters. In order to specialize and concentrate our efforts in key areas we opted to create divisions based on the product principle.

We are not here to reinvent the wheel; we have adopted this scheme from our competitors, the world’s largest companies, such as Pratt&Whitney, Rolls-Royce, Safran. They have so-called programs in the parent company, which also follow the product principle. These include military engines, commercial engines, helicopter engines. The Safran helicopter engines have a separate structure – Turbomeca. In this way, they achieve greater specialization during both development and manufacturing. Because today's design, development and production of engines for civil aircraft differs in ideology from the development and production of military engines, the criteria for those engines are quite different.

S. BUNTMAN: You mean the difference used not to be so obvious?

D. LELIKOV: Yes. It is believed that this discrepancy happened somewhere in the 3rd generation of engines. Before that, especially in the 20th century, which was very complex in this regard, a century in which there were many wars which were preceded by an arms race, when the main resources went to military applications – many civil engines, especially in the beginning, in the middle of the 20th century, were basically military engines.

But today, thank God, the trend has changed, and today civil aviation is one of the largest consumers of engines. If we take the structure of the gas-turbine engine market, almost half of it is accounted for by civil engines. And this trend that emerged in the ‘70s made the designers take a different look at the problem when consumers started to ask for a cost-effective civil engine.

There was a paradigm shift to the approach and design of the engine, where an originally civil engine is created with very rigid efficiency parameters. And then there is the trend towards environmental friendliness, which is difficult for designers, but otherwise positive, which has influenced the civil engine. At the moment, environmental friendliness, restrictions on noise and efficiency are the key criteria for civil engines.

Of course, the main criteria in military engine building in the past remain valid. But I want to say that today, any army, including ours, requires engines that are more fuel-efficient than they used to be. But the ideology itself, it changed somewhere between the 3rd and the 4th generation. Today the construction of civil engines actually involves the construction of an engine from scratch. Although there is borrowing, as there always will be. Because the technological advancements both in materials and use is common for many physical and technical parameters, and technological advancement will still be created as something unified, but the design itself is carried out based on different ideologies.

A. KURENNOY: Are you still manufacturing engines for space applications? Are you also engaged in the development and production of drones? This is an issue that specialists and non-specialists alike are interested in.

D. LELIKOV: UAVs are a new line of work for Oboronprom. On one hand, Russian Helicopters is engaged in the development of unmanned helicopters, this primarily involves Kamov Design Bureau. But what you are thinking of, is a contract that Oboronprom signed in 2010 with the Israeli company IAI to supply a big batch of drones to Russia.

Why was Oboronprom chosen? We were able to quickly solve the problem of assembly in Russia. Because the previous deliveries of drones were direct, i.e. they were pre-assembled. And there was a problem getting the capacity to perform maintenance, as they were being put into service in the Russian army.

To do this it was necessary to pass the assembly stage, when the company receives a set of completely disassembled aircraft and gradually the workers, technicians and engineers assemble the machine, test it by conducting all the necessary testing activities at the enterprise and in the field, and pass it on to the Ministry of Defense. In this way, it will be possible for them to gain as much competence as possible to fully service these aircraft at the Ministry of Defense.

We selected an enterprise from among our subsidiaries that could quickly master the assembly and supply of drones; this was Ural Civil Aviation Works, where we organized the assembly. In 2011 the Ministry of Defense signed a contract with Ural Civil Aviation Works as the direct supplier, and last year we began delivery of assembled and tested aircraft to the Ministry of Defense.

There is another noteworthy and interesting point. As always, the life makes interesting adjustments. When the tests began – they started in November and December – there were very severe frosts in Yekaterinburg. And there were fears expressed regarding the UAV – namely their use under severe frost conditions – all of the initial testing that the drones underwent was conducted in the most severe frost. The equipment proved to be more than adequate. In addition, under these conditions our specialists learned to make all the necessary adjustments to its work with the specialists from the Ministry of Defense.

Therefore, we believe that the very first acceptance testing in the coldest winter months was carried out in conditions that suggest that the coldest point was passed in December and January.

S. BUNTMAN: The rest will be easier.

A. KURENNOY: Now, let us return to the helicopters. We are mostly interested here in the military equipment – what is the most popular with our main customer, the Ministry of Defense, from among the existing models? We will talk about future models later.

D. LELIKOV: The most popular are the military transport helicopters Mi-8/17. Plus, there are new helicopters, which were put into service not so long ago, such as the Mi-28 and Ka-52. A lot of deliveries are on the way. This is the biggest market. But the Ministry of Defense also orders the Ansats, new helicopters that were already built in the post-Soviet era. And now we have agreed to supply heavy Mi-26 helicopters, which the Russian army also needs.

A. KURENNOY: A tricky question. These helicopters, are they up-to-date or are they cheap? Why is the Ministry of Defense ordering them?

D. LELIKOV: The Ministry of Defense orders them both because they are modern, and because they are... I cannot say they are cheap, they are completely adequate for the price. But there is a very specific system. The Ministry of Defense buys equipment that is put into service. Therefore, the order in which military equipment is built is quite strictly regulated. Equipment put into service comes as standard equipment to the troops. Therefore, the equipment that is purchased today is the equipment put into service by the Ministry of Defense.

S. BUNTMAN: Regarding the issue of how they are upgraded and for how long they remain reliable. There was a terrible period when Mi-8s seemed to just fall out of the sky. How does this affect prestige? What does this make you think?

A. KURENNOY: It’s a question of maintenance.

S. BUNTMAN: We understand that these are completely different Mi-8s, with different maintenance in different conditions. But people see the first announcement from TASS– a Mi-8 has fallen.

D. LELIKOV: I can say that when there is a Mi-8 helicopter crash, of course, it is always very bad news for us. And then we follow very closely the investigation of the crash. In most cases, the human factor is to blame, in many cases it is very vexing when equipment is damaged and people die, and the reason is inadequate handling or control in bad weather conditions. It is extremely frustrating when human lives are lost due to human error.

But there is a reason for this, because maintenance is inadequate at those airlines, where these cases occurred. There have been cases of supply of counterfeit parts, resulting in crashes. As for the Ministry of Defense, this issue has been fundamentally raised today both by the Ministry of Defense and the Military-Industrial Commission – that in order to have reliable equipment, the army must have highly skilled maintenance workers.

Both the Ministry of Defense and we are faced with this task now, in order to organize adequate, high-quality maintenance. Even the best helicopter will not be completely reliable, if it is not properly maintained, if defective parts are not duly replaced.

S. BUNTMAN: And how is this issue resolved now, with the repair and maintenance of all equipment in the armed forces? There were different thoughts on this. What is the trend now?

D. LELIKOV: The trend is as follows. We are preparing to sign new contracts to support the life cycle of our equipment in the armed forces. The task is very complex. Why? It requires a very detailed and careful study, where the responsibility of Russian Helicopters or United Engine Corporation begins and where it ends, and where the responsibility of the Ministry of Defense begins. But given the fact that we understand that this is a lucrative amount of work for us, the Ministry of Defense understands us very well today, which is why we specify in detail the division of responsibilities and work in this area and prepare long-term contracts that accurately describe the work procedures.

S. BUNTMAN: We are talking to Dmitry Lelikov – the CEO of MIC Oboronprom. We are talking about helicopters now.

A. ERMOLIN: Dmitry, Alexander has already asked you about the most popular helicopters ordered for the armed forces. From your perspective, what are the most advanced helicopters, the most serious in terms of combat performance? What are you rightfully proud of?

D. LELIKOV: We are proud first of all of the new war machines that are put into service, these are the Mi-28N and Ka-52. Russian Helicopters also has a lot of pride in the very successful and effective Mi-8/17 helicopter. We are also proud of the pre-existing machines and those machines that were built in the post-Soviet time and entered service recently. I’m talking about the Mi-28N and Ka-52 combat helicopters. These are fairly modern machines, equipped with very powerful weapons with good speed and good impact strength.

A. ERMOLIN: These are attack helicopters.

D. LELIKOV: That’s right.

A. KURENNOY: And how do they compete with their foreign counterparts? The eternal question – who will beat whom?

D. LELIKOV: We believe that our helicopters, at the very least, meet modern requirements and are even superior for a number of indicators. A clear indication of this is the good export potential of our helicopters. The first is the Mi-28N. This is understandable because the Rostov plant producing these machines is very well established on the global market as a result of supplying the Mi-24 and Mi-35. Therefore, the export orders are primarily for this machine. To date Russian Helicopters is frankly struggling to meet both the production program for the Ministry of Defense, and the export program. Therefore, to a certain extent it can be said that customers are lining up to buy Russian helicopters. This creates favorable conditions for us to increase production of helicopters. Therefore, annual growth in helicopter production ranges from 20 to 30%. This places significant demand on production. Thank God we are able to cope with that.

A. KURENNOY: This is really good news. Let us set aside the external market for the moment. What is planned for delivery in terms of helicopters to the army as part of the state armaments program until 2020?

D. LELIKOV: As regards helicopters supplies before 2020, it is planned to deliver Mi-28N, Ka-52, Mi-26T2, Mi-8/17, Ka-62 (a new machine, which will be produced from 2015), Ka-22 and Ansat. That is, the Ministry of Defense supply line is wide enough. The Ministry of Defense will receive a lot of different equipment that will help it resolve the various tasks it is facing.

A. ERMOLIN: At the present time we often hear complaints, and grumble ourselves that this is bad, or that is bad. I have looked at your figures; it turns out that in 8 years your revenue increased from 17 to 226 billion. Why such an enormous leap?

D. LELIKOV: You probably mean Oboronprom revenue. This is primarily due to the consolidation, to the fact that businesses were added to Oboronprom, so this growth is not only intensive but also extensive. But the proportion of intensive growth is also quite large. We look at the figures ourselves, compare the total revenue of enterprises that were in the Oboronprom since 2008, and during that time the average revenue has been annually growing by 15-20%, which is a good indicator of intensive development. And the figures that you are mentioned, this is intensity, plus extensiveness; it is simply an increase in Oboronprom business.

S. BUNTMAN: We have a question from a listener: “Why do we buy foreign helicopters, if our own are so good?”

D. LELIKOV: Why does the Ministry of Defense buy foreign helicopters?

S. BUNTMAN: That is not clear.

A. ERMOLIN: They probably had private helicopters in mind.

S. BUNTMAN: We have seen Dmitry Medvedev in an Italian helicopter... Where is that niche that you are not covering?

D. LELIKOV: The answer is quite simple. Because we all came from the Soviet Union, those advances that were made back then still influence Russian industry today. To a large extent the aviation industry of the Soviet Union was used to supply the Ministry of Defense, and only secondarily –civil aviation. Helicopter building largely implies the Ministry of Defense. Therefore, the machines produced are mostly medium and heavy helicopters.

Back then, there was no aim to create a corporate helicopter, and this is where our competitors are so strong. Bell or AugustaWestland have major sales in this segment. Therefore, by understanding this issue and realizing that it is difficult to catch up, because this is not our strong point – the design and production of corporate helicopters – we began to collaborate with AugustaWestland. We formed a joint venture, as part of which we have established a site in Tomilino, and since last year and this year, have begun assembly of helicopters that we do not produce – AW139. This is a VIP-helicopter for corporate transportation needs.

S. BUNTMAN: Could there be a company – and I am thinking here about the issue of monopoly, of consolidation – a company that begins the small-scale manufacture of corporate helicopters, and doesn’t even think about the competition and the need to cover the whole range of aircraft.

D. LELIKOV: Maybe that’s right. But if you take our Western partners, competitors, they are realizing that there is some specificity and there is the necessary competence for the development, assembly and manufacture of helicopters. AugustaWestland, for example, they went into partnership with us to organize this production, to assemble helicopters with us. And now we have already reached more advanced cooperation on a new helicopter, a 2.5-ton one, on which Russian Helicopters is now preparing to cooperate with AugustaWestland. Therefore, it is this deepening of cooperation that shows that it does not end with just assembly. It all goes deeper than that.

S. BUNTMAN: But doesn’t the military buy foreign helicopters? Does the Ministry of Defense not buy them? Does it, or doesn’t it? Because I have been told categorically here that there were announcements that they did buy something.

D. LELIKOV: No, they did not. Last year a tender was announced, in which, perhaps, Eurocopter would have taken part, but then the tender was canceled. But within the framework of joint production of helicopters with AugustaWestland the Ministry of Defense is interested in purchasing the transport version of the machines for the Ministry of Defense, in order to expand their range and gain experience. For us, it is also interesting, for this means expanding our competence. There is always something to learn from our partners and competitors. We look at this as absolutely normal. For the Ministry of Defense the fact that they are produced in Russia and that Russian Helicopters can organize an adequate support service – these facts are very important for the Ministry of Defense.

S. BUNTMAN: Including spare parts.

D. LELIKOV: Of course. Including necessary upgrades agreed with the designer and manufacturer.

A. KURENNOY: Dmitry, yet another very important question. In the field of helicopter and engine building, how independent are we from imported materials and components?

D. LELIKOV: For most helicopters and engines, given the fact that the industry was based on a self-sufficient and independent closed loop, I can say that we are quite independent today, almost one hundred percent. The question remains, however, whether this is good or bad. For the purposes of defense, of course, it’s good when the national industry can produce everything from electronics to all metal parts.

But we nevertheless take a look at what is being produced around the world, as part of the same international tenders, particularly in India; we deliver foreign components in the form of electronics, avionics and so on for our helicopters. This also attracts the attention of the Russian Ministry of Defense. So, today our inclusion in the international division of labor is more extensive. Today, having a basis and the ability to produce everything on our territory, we look at what can be taken from our Western competitors in a more efficient and better way in order to conduct localization in Russia in the event of it being economically feasibility to produce a large number of products.

A. KURENNOY: When working on new models, how closely do you cooperate with the Military-Industrial Commission, with the relevant services of the Ministry of Defense? Do you take their opinions on board? Is there some sort of collaboration?

D. LELIKOV: We have a lot of very collaborative work. The Military-Industrial Commission is the body that controls the military-industrial complex, it is the control body assigned by the government, which can influence and have effect both on the military-industrial complex, and the Ministry of Defense. It is very important for us. Why? Sometimes we are involved in tough discussions on a number of issues with the Ministry of Defense, and we need a strong referee, who has the right to put both sides in their place. And this is very important.

A lot of advances both in science and new technology are pre-considered at the Military-Industrial Commission, and very often the Military-Industrial Commission inspires the Ministry of Defense to start work on a particular subject. Therefore, the work here is conducted literally on a daily basis and in full cooperation. And this is currently an effective mechanism for the military-industrial complex to supply the Ministry of Defense and ensure the security of the Russian Federation.

A. ERMOLIN: And how competitive are your engines at a global level? And a follow-up question from one of our listeners: why does Superjet not use your engines?

D. LELIKOV: Engines that are manufactured by the United Engine Corporation are quite competitive. It is another matter that competitiveness is measured in exports. The volume of exports by UEC is large enough. Both at Russian Helicopters and at UEC it is plus/minus 50%. Thus far, Russian Helicopters has been a little more focused on the domestic market, due to an increased state defense order, but before that it was mainly exports.

UEC exports are greater than 50% of production at the moment. This bears testimony to the good competitiveness of the engines. It is another matter that we are again dealing with civil engines, which is a difficult issue for us. Here, the issue is that today the building of an up-to-date cost-effective civil engine is a very complex thing, primarily for economic reasons. Because in order to recoup the cost of the civil engine, you need to sell a large number of civil aircraft.

The domestic market cannot consume this many civil aircraft. Therefore, you can only recoup the cost of civil engines in international projects. So, this Sukhoi Superjet project, it was established initially as an international project and it is being implemented as an international project. If we take the plane, it is a joint venture involving Italy’s Alenia.

We have a joint venture between NPO Saturn and Snecma, 50 / 50, this joint venture will supply engines. The engines are assembled in Russia, at NPO Saturn. From NPO Saturn they are delivered to Komsomolsk-on-Amur, where Sukhoi Superjet is assembled and they are installed on the aircraft there. So, the engine is manufactured in Russia. It is another matter that the “hot” section comes from France, and the “cold” sections plus the assembly, plus engine testing are done in Russia by NPO Saturn, a subsidiary of the United Engine Corporation.

A. KURENNOY: Another hot topic. You are participating in work on a key military aircraft project, the PAK FA project. What is being done in this direction?

D. LELIKOV: A lot of things is being done in this direction.  So far, the 117S engine has been built, and installed in the PAK FA aviation complex and is being tested. We have achieved good results in the tests of our engine and the aircraft as a whole. We are satisfied with the pace of work on the new engine, which is being built in the same way as the other civilian engine PD-14, for a family of future engines. The engine for the PAK FA is a new engine that will be used for a family of both heavy fighter engines, and lighter fighter engines. Therefore, both we and the customers are satisfied with the work on the PAK FA project, we are progressing on schedule.

A. KURENNOY: This is a new generation unit.

D. LELIKOV: That’s right.

A. ERMOLIN: What kind of program is “Helicopter 2020”? And what is your understanding of the helicopter of the future?

D. LELIKOV: We have begun research work on “Helicopter 2020”. And the first phase is to determine the shape of the aircraft. It is understood that this helicopter should be faster, i.e. with a threshold speed much greater than that of the existing helicopters today. The speed is close to 400 kilometers per hour, maybe even more. Although when it comes to speed, it is debatable, because the question of economic efficiency is very important for the helicopter. Any increase in speed may greatly raise the price of a helicopter and make it ineffective in cost terms, especially for commercial use. So far the two design bureaus – Kamov Design Bureau and Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant – are proposing the look of a new product, based on which the uniform appearance will be selected by the customer from the Ministry of Industry and Trade and the Ministry of Defense. We will then follow the selected look precisely. This is “Helicopter 2020”, as we call it, or the advanced high-speed helicopter (AHH).

A. KURENNOY: AHH. You have some even more advanced models, I have taken a look at your website, these are the Mi-171 and Ka-62. What are those?

D. LELIKOV: Mi-171 is the codename for the modernized Mi-171A2. This is an aircraft that should replace the well-proven helicopter Mi-8/17. It is in the same weight class – it has a take-off weight of 13 tons, and a payload of up to 5 tons. The Mi-171A2 will replace and extend the possibility of sales of the Mi-8/17 helicopter, which is the most widespread and profitable for Russian Helicopters. And within this development effort an effective model, primarily in economic terms, is currently being developed   ̶  a model that will have a higher flight speed, longer range, better economic indicators, which are key factors of our commercial and military engines.

A. KURENNOY: So it is still dual-purpose.

D. LELIKOV: Yes, in any case, this is a dual-purpose machine.

A. KURENNOY: And the Ka-62.

D. LELIKOV: The Ka-62 is the first Kamov Bureau helicopter with classical arrangement, not coaxial, with a main rotor and tail rotor. This aircraft is currently in the very niche where we used not to have a presence. It has a 6.5-ton take-off weight and 2.5 tons of payload. The helicopter is currently assembled at our company Progress. Its certification is being prepared simultaneously. The helicopter deliveries are planned in the framework of SAP, and it already has commercial customers. Last year Russian Helicopters signed a first contract with the Brazilian company Atlas Aero, which is buying 7 Ka-62 helicopters with an option for 7 more aircraft, to be used by the oil Petrobras company. It is a pleasant fact for us that the helicopter, which is still at the beginning of production, already has a contract with a foreign customer. It shows that Russian Helicopters already has a reputation on the global market. This is a very reassuring fact.

A. ERMOLIN: One listener Maxim has implored us: “Please ask about the production of gyrocopters”.

A. KURENNOY: This is not a very promising market.

D. LELIKOV: Due to the magnitude of the tasks facing Russian Helicopters, we do not see this aspect as an important priority. It is more than likely something for small private companies. The main goal for Russian Helicopters is the production of mass-produced helicopters that are in demand both on the global market and from our main customer – the Ministry of Defense.

A. KURENNOY: You also have some exotic engines compared with the other things you produce – marine engines and engines for ground transportation.

D. LELIKOV: Yes, we have this range of engines; they are produced at NPO Saturn. At UEC we have a very broad range of engines, from engines for civil aircraft to space engines. In particular, there is a line of engines for ships and engines for ground use. I don’t know which one exactly you mean.

That is, engines for ground use are engines primarily for land-based gas compressor units and gas turbines, i.e. for electric power generation. There are some development efforts led by “Kuznetsov” to build an engine for a gas turbine locomotive, as we call it. Russian Railways has expressed interest in this way of powering its locomotives. This work is also in progress. It shows that this range of aircraft engines can be widely used, and not only in the skies.

S. BUNTMAN: Thank you, Dmitry. You were listening to “Arsenal”. We will continue to investigate the weapons of the 21st century army every Monday at 10 p.m. All the best.

 

 

Source: 
Echo Moskvy radio station

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